Interview: Dr. Korie Grayson, Postdoctoral Researcher at University of Michigan, Speaker

By Angela Tai

You recently received your PhD in biomedical engineering from Cornell and now you’re a Postdoctoral Researcher at the University of Michigan. What motivated you to go into hard sciences as a career?

That’s a great question. I think the thing that motivated me specifically to go into engineering stems back to an actual visit I did at Johns Hopkins University when I was doing a research internship at the Naval Research Laboratory. We did a tour of their Biomedical Engineering Department and I was fascinated with the devices that they came up with for better patient healthcare and I always kept that as a nugget in the back of my head. I realized that I could do things other than Chemistry, although Chemistry in itself is very challenging. It wasn’t until I got a job working for a biomedical device company and was assembling a dialysis graft that I realized that I wanted to be more on the R&D side or figuring out the next design or next thing that could possibly go into a patient. I decided to apply to grad school and at that time, I had surrounded myself with grad students that were friends - they were pursuing PhDs in Chemical and Biomedical Engineering. So, they encouraged me to apply to grad school and I had a  background in Chemistry which definitely helped. Luckily, Cornell took a chance and they said yes! It took me a minute once I got accepted into the program to really get into that engineering mindset along with the engineering principles and then I was able to successfully complete my PhD and Biomedical Engineering in May. Now, I’m in Chemical Engineering so it all comes around full circle. 

You’re a first-generation student and you were candid about your struggles with being a first-generation student which prompted you to apply and ultimately attend a historically Black College. What message would you like to impart to other first-generation students? 

For me, it’s about really finding someone who is willing to push and also be an ally for you wherever you are. As first generation students, a lot of times we’re figuring out stuff on our own when the reality is, we don’t have to. There are people who have done this before us and they’re willing to share their knowledge. That’s why I’m constantly saying “I’m first gen” because I’ve figured it out to a certain degree and I’m always open to people reaching out to me and any advice I can give them. It’s about finding someone who has done it before and having mentors and community that can help you in the process. Oftentimes, I think first generation students struggle because it’s hard to find people who can relate and hard to understand other cultures when we’re coming from households where our parents didn’t necessarily go to college. There’s so many resources now and so many of us are succeeding, it’s just a network that first-gen students need to tap into. 

You were featured in Forbes magazine, where you discussed your experience with trying to graduate during these unprecedented times. Did COVID change how you foresee the direction of your career? 

When COVID happened, I was freaking out because I was near the end and had a few more tests and experiments to run. Then, the lab shut down. So it made me really think, especially for those of us who do benchtop and cell cultures at work, we hit a standstill because we couldn’t do those things anymore. But for those who were doing computational work, they didn’t have to be in the lab. They were able to do it on their computers and be at home and rest. Also, they were still able to be productive unlike those of us who have to go into the lab. It made me rethink things and that’s when I thought about going into coding, computer science, and computer engineering. These are applicable skills to have since a lot of our jobs are moving towards tech. Research-wise, when the world stops, what can I still do to be productive? That has a lot to do with computational science. I actually give a lot of advice, especially to undergrads. I tell them that if they can, take a computer science class or learn how to code. Most importantly, learn how to construct computational models if you can. These are all valuable skills when it comes down to things like this when you have a pandemic and the world shuts down. In terms of COVID specifically, I joined my postdoc lab advisor because she is doing work in the COVID space. She’s doing work that has to do with understanding the symptoms of COVID - such as ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) that is experienced by some COVID patients and how we can help patients who reach that timeline with COVID where they have this symptom. I thought it was really cool because I was in a much more translational and applicable mindset when it comes to my research. That’s one of the main reasons why I joined the lab and now I can understand that process better. I’ve been able to learn what immune cells are present and how fluid builds up in the lungs because I didn’t know any of that beforehand. Research-wise, I like moving more into that direction because now I can hopefully have an application, specifically for older patients who are suffering from ARDS. 

Six months ago, you successfully defended your PhD thesis over Zoom. In your post, you stated that you not only learned so much in the process but that you learned a ton about yourself as well. Once the research was completed, what was the most challenging part of completing your thesis? 

Well, in actual speaking about writing and doing the dissertation, the hardest part to me was the writing. Writing isn’t my strong suit, I can write well but it’s not something that I necessarily enjoy. So the COVID situation was kind of a blessing in disguise for me because it made me stop doing actual experimental work and start focusing on writing and submitting my papers to academic journals in order to graduate, defend my thesis, and move on to my next steps. I remember it was just a schedule where I would wake up at around 6/7AM and either start typing or making a figure. I would go back and forth to my advisor and was constantly asking him if I should make any edits, how something looks or if I should reformat anything. Having that back and forth and not really being done until 11:00 at night, there was just a month or two where that was my schedule because I needed to get it done. But I was over it and was beyond ready to submit everything and just move on. That was one of the hardest parts for me - being able to really sit down and write everything. Playing with all of the different softwares and making all the figures and data analyses - we’ve done all of these things throughout the PhD program but when you finally sit down and put a document together that’s over 200 pages, it’s a lot of work and it takes a lot out of you. Writing was definitely the most difficult part of my thesis journey. Another difficult part was believing in myself and believing that I couldn’t do many things when in reality, I could. I think we kind of struggle and people have this imposter syndrome, thinking they’re a fraud and shouldn’t be wherever they’re currently at. People think that it doesn't make sense for them to be there when in actuality, they picked you to be there and you are more than good enough to be in that program because you have something that will make you a good researcher, leader and mentor. You need to have that mindset switch from going “why am I here and I don’t belong” to “okay I can do this and believe I can succeed.” Once I had that mindset switch, it was around my fourth year which is pretty shocking, I realized that it’s time to go and graduate and I’m no longer depending on my advisor for every direction of the project and I’m thinking about future applications and that’s how you know you’re ready to move on to a postdoc. I went through this transition from being a young and naive grad student to this kind of seasoned student, I’m a little bit over it. Having that transition was hard but definitely super beneficial to where I’m at now. 

You opened for the LIVE online conference for women in STEM this past summer. The mission of the conference was to help women in STEM find their STEM Superpower and find a community that they can collaborate with. You’re very passionate about gender equality in STEM subjects. What is your take on why women are underrepresented in STEM fields? 

A lot of it has to do with gender bias and gender stereotypes as far as women not being good at math and problem solving which is quite the opposite. Those stigmas stay and permeate through engineering, computer science and physics because in general, there’s this thought that men are more adept and able to do certain things. In reality, women can do these things and even be more successful in certain realms but because of these stereotypes that we have to battle, representation starts to just go down and down. We start off with the same performing rates in high school except for in physics and computer science. Then we get to college and the numbers just start dropping and dropping again, you also don’t have that representation there. Women aren’t going to stay in the field or think that they’ll be able to succeed in the field if they don’t have role models or people that they can look up to in general - that’s why representation is super important to me. That visibility of actually seeing women, women of color and black indigenous women of color in the field that are succeeding or who are at least present at this point is important for increasing representation. I think realizing those unconscious biases that we have and fighting to make a change; in general, women have to work at being more confident leaders when it comes to being in the STEM field. Sometimes, we’re delegated to the more secretarial tasks of planning or organizing something when in reality, we need to lead the team and not plan the bake sale that’s going to happen. It's about us being able to recognize our power and strength and looking up to women in the field who are willing to get us to the next level and mentor us. As a whole, the STEM world has to realize that there are certain barriers that we really need to chip away at to increase our visibility and representation in the field. 

On your LinkedIn profile, you provided several resources for black women in STEM. What could educators and employers (and just allies in general) do to encourage more Black students to enter STEM programs?

I think that starts with just a willingness to understand a little bit about our culture and our background and barriers that we’ve had to overcome in order to get a seat at the table. It takes a lot of diversity and inclusion training to realize our unconscious biases and our lack of inclusivity - even if it’s not intentional. These are things that institutions will have to implement to go past having representation of black women in STEM but also for people of different gender identities, different sexual orientations as well as people with disabilities. It’s going to take a lot of training and willingness to accept that what they’ve been doing is wrong and therefore trying to make it right. As the pipeline starts K-12, it’s important to show them different representations of black women in STEM that are doing many different jobs, not just the CEO of a major tech company but also showing someone who is using their STEM Degree to better streamline fashion or do gaming and coding. We have to have this representation across all of these types of fields in order for us to increase it in general and bring awareness to the fact that yeah, you can do chemistry but you can do so many other things. Increasing awareness and doing the training and accepting our flaws and how we can use them to improve STEM is what matters the most. It’s definitely important to increase the presence and awareness of black women in STEM. The main takeaway is representation matters. We have to show young black women and young women of color that there are many people in STEM and if they can do it, you can do it too. 

You made the 2020 List of Influential African American Women to Follow on LinkedIn. Congratulations! Did you have a mentor that served as a catalyst for your path in academia or interests? Was there a field that you almost went into instead of hard sciences?

Well, I’ll start off with the field question. I get asked that sometimes and I tell people that initially, I was more into healthcare and servicing patients and people. I wanted to be a masseuse and then a chiropractor so actually I had no idea that I  wanted to go into STEM. I took Calculus and Chemistry in high school and it was hard but I figured that I could be pretty good at it. When I got to college, my general chemistry professor said that I needed to change my major from biology to chemistry because she thought I was more of an analytical and critical thinker. Throughout my life, my mentors pushed me to do things that were outside of my comfort zone but they saw things in me that I honestly couldn’t even begin to see in myself. Dr. Katina Hall played a major role in me switching my major to Chemistry. In grad school, my mentor Dr. Brandy Johnson knew that I was thinking about med school and recommended that I do an MD/PhD program. That was the first time that I had really thought about a PhD program; my friends (who were also my mentors) really inspired me to apply to grad school because they were the first black biomedical engineers that I had met. I still keep in contact with them today and they still push me to do other things even after completing a PhD. Mentors will see a lot in you that you might not see in yourself, they will push you to do things and give you advice when you need it. My mentors gave me options and told me about things that I needed to be aware of which helped me be more successful. I really appreciate them for that and I’m still taking mentors, even if it’s just learning different things or different processes. Mentorship is very important - it’s always good to have people that are leading and guiding you. Before I decided between med and a PhD, I shadowed an OB/GYN, Dr. Thomas Kimble, and it was great just watching him and his hours, patient interaction and watching the many deliveries of babies, I realized med school wasn’t for me. He was still willing to write my recommendations for grad school and for my fellowship. He was a huge support in that aspect. I’ve been lucky enough to have mentors who have supported me no matter what. I’ve done lots of things that weren’t centered around research for my PhD and my advisor was always supportive. That was really transformative for me - developing other skills such as mentoring and leadership. I appreciate my current mentor too, she’s doing so much in her own right as a professor. I’ve taken everything that she’s given me and now I’m just trying to make her proud. Mentorship is so important, I can’t stress that enough. 

This past weekend, you helped organize the 2nd Annual STEM Success Virtual Summit. The purpose of the conference was to empower young adults in STEM fields. What is the most rewarding aspect of these virtual conferences? 

I think for me, the STEM Success Summit was just a team where I had watched them do the first one and knew most of the people, in some aspect, and wanted to be a part of that energy. I reached out to them and asked if they needed any help, that’s how I became a part of that team. I just understood the ethos of what they were trying to do, it was very similar to what I was trying to impart to young people in STEM. I wanted to provide an experience for recent grads and young professionals and give them resources on how we do things and again if I’ve done it, why wouldn’t I share my network or my experiences and try to give minorities in STEM fields some inspiration and let them know that they can do it too. I really enjoyed working with them and organizing the conference, even from the panel that I had moderated or putting together the mentoring expo. I had friends with PhD’s who could DJ so that really set the tone for the conference. Conferences aren’t the most exciting thing in the world, especially virtual conferences these days but we put a little twist on it which was so exciting. I always tell people that what they see on that screen is real genuine energy from everyone who want to see people who look like us succeed. It was really amazing putting that together - everything from the speakers to the sponsors and we can’t wait for the next year, we’re trying to go bigger and better and we’re so excited about what that might look like for 2021. 

You mentioned you’re the only Black female Postdoc in your department. Did you feel like you had to adapt to your environment because of it? 

Going to an HBCU school and being surrounded by scientists who look like you and who can relate to you culturally is a real confidence builder when you’re in that space. When you go somewhere else where you may be the only black woman in your lab, it might be a bit of a culture shock. You may wonder: “why am I the only one here?” Fortunately for me, when I joined Cornell’s PhD program, there were two other black women in my class. That really showed that we have some sort of presence, three out of twenty-something isn’t a whole lot but at that time in that department specifically, it was a lot. Then, there were at least five other black students who were ahead of us that were in the same department as well. We may have not all been best friends but I was happy that I had black women I could talk to about research and navigating the world of STEM which is predominantly white and male. It was really comforting and helped me become more confident in my research and also in me as a person. I moved to another university in the middle of my PhD program because my advisor had gotten a new position there and the numbers dropped. Being able to create community, regardless of how small the department was, was very important. People can relate to you and are able to understand what you’re going through. Being the only black woman in the room doesn’t necessarily bother me now because I have such a big network of black postdocs in general from STEM to education to whatever. That’s more reaffirming for me rather than always being the only one. Thank goodness I’m not the only black woman in my lab, my advisor is a black woman and one of the grad students is a black woman. Those situations are rare but I came because I wanted to be mentored by a black woman. The numbers aren’t fully there for representation but I feel like it’s getting better. I’m starting to see so many more Hispanic, Latinx and Native Americans in PhD programs although we’re far from where we need to be. I really think it’s about building that community and maintaining it. You can create a community that can help you get through the program or even the rest of your career. 

Your Instagram post about “having it all together” really resonated with us. You mentioned that you were still getting your life and apartment together after moving to start your new Postdoc position. Without a doubt, you wear several hats and take on multiple projects at a time, whether it’s related to your Postdoctoral research, personal branding, or advocacy efforts. How do you manage your time and prioritize your workload? 

I know for me, when I have a lot of things going on, I’m super productive. If I have just one thing going on, I kind of drag my feet and put it off for as long as possible. I have to-do lists that I write down and check off as far as everything that I need to do for the day. I even have a lab to-do list, I keep them separate because it’s so much between the two. When it comes to what I have to do now, I always try to figure out what I need to do the night before. I’m writing down my list and seeing if I can cross off as many things as possible, you feel good when you do five things in a day versus one. It can be as simple as paying my rent or running this experiment or applying to this fellowship or submitting a paper for an academic journal. Having the list really helps me delineate what is important and helps me get through the day. Another thing is prioritizing my mental and physical health, in order to fit that in, I had to do it early in the morning because I never knew how long I’d be in the lab for so I became one of those early morning people to get everything done in the morning. I started waking up at 5:00am and going to the gym and then, I would get to the lab at 8:00am and finished my day whenever I needed to finish. Now, my body naturally wakes up around 5/6am and it gives me more hours in the day to get more stuff done. Once I realized that, I had no problem waking up at 5/6am. Waking up early and prioritizing my health were ways that I was able to manage these things. Also, saying no is good! I can’t do everything that people ask me to because I prioritize myself and my research. In order to preserve my sanity, I had to start saying no to certain things and being okay with that. I’m way less stressed now and it actually worked in my favor. 

You got very real in one of your interviews about not necessarily fitting into the social norms. You broke up your engagement to focus on yourself and your passion which was your studies. I know we’re all kind of trained to believe that we can have it all but do you feel like in order to achieve greater things in life, it’s necessary to make sacrifices along the way? 

I think it honestly depends on your core values, what you prioritize and what you hold important. Having a marriage and kids is a great accomplishment and amazing things to have in your life. But above all else, I believe in self-love. I’m a firm believer in knowing yourself and the power of self-determination. If you enjoy being single and are dedicating your life to something other than yourself, then that’s a life worth living. When it comes to whether or not you want to succeed and be an entrepreneur, it’s okay to pursue your passions and work super hard. You don’t have to be like your parents, I had time to sit down and think about what I wanted and I didn’t have to operate within those parameters. There’s so much more to being a woman, you have to know what your core values and desires are in life. If you want to be an entrepreneur or you want to be independent, then you have the freedom to do so. I just know for me, marriage and kids is not where I’m trying to go right now. Maybe I wanted this at one point but my mindset shifted and it’s all about changing and evolving and being open to the process. It starts with self-awareness and how you want to live your life and most importantly, be happy. 

What’s your definition of success and failure?

Ha, I fail all the time. I think for me, success would be my whole authentic self that is advocating not only for me but also for others as well as making some sort of difference or imprint on this world. That would be success to me. It’s not necessarily monetary value but an overall goal of just making an impression on or showing diversity in STEM. We need advocates and I think for me, that would be success. Failure would be to lose that humility which is different from self-awareness and not pulling up others who are on the same trajectory as me. If I were to lose those goals and passions that I have, failure would entail not supporting others who have been successful in their endeavors.